Let's talk about Durmstrang

[anemonen]

Let’s talk about Durmstrang

Yesterday when I was researching Viktor Krum for my portrait of him, I came across a statement from JKR that Durmstrang is situated somewhere in the north of Norway or Sweden. This really surprised me. Based on Krum being from Bulgaria and Karkaroff presumably also of Slavic origin based on his name, I assumed that it would be maybe somewhere in the mountains in Romania or in the Ural Mountains or maybe even in the Alps since the name is derived from German. So, weird as I am, I lay thinking about this yesterday when I was trying to sleep.

Well then, let’s assume that Durmstrang is based on some sort of Eastern-Central-Northern European cooperation that decided that the north was a good place for a secret school (which do make sense, because there’s far between people up there). But then, based on the fact that the school is in Sweden/Norway, the likely main language is German and they have students from Bulgaria, they get students from an incredibly vast area. At least the size I showed in the map.


This makes me puzzle a bit at the fact that Durmstrang is smaller than Hogwarts, according to Krum. Germany alone is bigger than UK and Ireland put together, so even taking in account that D doesn’t accept Muggleborn students (let’s say that’s about ¼ of the students), it should be a lot bigger than Hogwarts. Or maybe it’s some sort of elite school for rich kids (seeing as Lucius wanted to send Draco there), or maybe there are lots of other schools in the area as well, as the Muggleborns would need a school to attend as well. Maybe some parents were sceptical to D’s reputation for dark magic or against the fact that Muggleborns weren’t accepted. What do you think?


Another thing I was thinking about: Say Snape was in fact the master of the Elder Wand when he was killed, would Voldemort have gained its allegiance? Would having Nagini kill Snape truly defeat him? I’m curious.

Comments

[herumtreiber.livejournal.com]

Durmstrang must have access to the sea, or at least a lake nearby, to judge by their ship. Also, I don't remember exactly, but something Krum said might imply it is at a higher latitude than Scotland.

It could also be that Durmstrang is for northern Europe and Beauxbatons for the southern part.

Since JKR hasn't pinpointed the location, it could be anywhere really, the name does point to a Germanic influence.

As for Snape, it is debatable. It could be argued that killing him would effectively defeat him - but then it was Snape that killed Dumbledore and he didn't become the Master, but Draco instead.

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but as I mentioned, JKR stated that Durmstrang is situated in northern Scandinavia (in this interview), so that was what made me wonder in the first place. I just found it a bit strange.

I think both can be argued for. But when Snape killed Dumbledore, D was no longer master of the Elder Wand since Draco had already defeated him, so killing him wouldn't have any effect. What I was thinking was that Snape had gone to such lengths to help defeat Voldemort and he didn't really have much to live for anymore, so was killing him really defeating him? I don't know.

[herumtreiber.livejournal.com]

I agree. Snape might have seen that as a victory.

It's interesting to contemplate how real the defeat must be. In the confrontation with Draco, it might have been advantageous for Dumbledore's plans if Draco wrested control of the wand to obscure the issue of ownership and confuse Voldemort, so he might have let himself become careless.

What would the wand accept as a true defeat?

[eidheann_writes]

I'm going with the theory that Durmstrang is not region locked in its admissions (since Lucius wanted to send Draco- and almost did were it not for Narcissa's veto) but pulls from all (wealthy) pureblood and potentially dark-leaning families. I always assumed that the Tri-Wizard Tournament pulled from those three schools due to tradition and there have to be other wizarding schools in Europe (based on Quidditch actually. Enough of a population to have international quidditch means each country needs to have enough of a population to support a hogwarts sized school.)

As for Nagini killing Snape. My guess is yes because she was a Horcrux. Which meant it was kinda like Voldemort doing it

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

That does make a lot of sense. Although Krum doesn't seem too conservative, as he pursued Hermione, and even invited her to visit him at home. But it definitely seems likely that there are more schools in the area and that parents choose where to send their kids to a larger extent than in UK.

And about Snape, I didn't really mean the fact that Nagini killed him, I was more wondering if Snape was really defeated by being killed. He'd already done so much to defeat Voldemort and his work was mostly done. Would the wand have recognised his killing as his defeat?

[eidheann_writes]

Sorry yes. I meant the horcrux meant defeat. I get Impatient on my phone because my brain goes faster than. My thumbs and I lose track. Of what I'm saying and what I've already said. Sometimes XD

[ashindk.livejournal.com]

The Durmstrang thing has always mystified me too. Everything we're told about them seems either germanic or slavic, so why would the school be in northern Scandinavia? The names, the uniforms, the accent that the students speak in... There's nothing remotely scandinavian about any of that. I'd be tempted to say that jkr just doesn't know what she's talkning about, except that would not be like her at all.

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Yes! Totally on board with you there; there's literally nothing about Durmstrang that says Scandinavia. I'd be tempted to say that as well, it was really my first thought, but JRK puts so much thought into everything, so that would be really strange. Idek.

[ashindk.livejournal.com]

Very strange. Especially because Beauxbattons is so stereotypically French and Hogwarts is so British. And then she's just.... Lumped everything east of that together into something vaguely eastern European and placed it somewhere that's not related at all. I think it would have been much more logical to place it somewhere like Belarus...
A Scandinavian wizarding school would be extremely cool, though. There is so much to draw inspiration from! Trolls and elfs and huldra and nisse... Loads of haunted places too. But Durmstrang is just very un-Scandinavian. I would think a Scandi-school would be very relaxed and liberal, just like the muggle versions are, compared to other schools around the world. No uniforms, calling teachers by their first name and things like that...

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Yes. I always pictured that wizarding schools in Scandinavia would be more like the regular schools here; not boarding schools, but smaller, local day schools in wizarding villages and bigger cities. What you're saying about the schools being pretty liberal makes a lot of sense too. It would be so cool to see someone delve into the magic society of Scandinavia (although maybe it's just us Scandinavians who would think so) :)

[ashindk.livejournal.com]

Lol! That's probably true :-)
How many of us are there, anyway? I can think of five, including you and me. That's a very small audience.

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

I only know of five also; nenne, huldrejenta, sylvaticginger and us. Not a very big audience I suppose ;)

[ashindk.livejournal.com]

Yup, those were the other three I was thinking about.

[ashindk.livejournal.com]

I just remembered this fic: Snatched by blamebrampton
I don't know if you've read it. It's set partially in Finland, so not Scandinavia as such, but close enough :-) (and it's a really good fic, so if you haven't read it, you should)

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Oh! Thanks for the rec, that sounds great. Close enough, definitely :)

[capitu]

Well, I remember (bear in mind it's been quite a while since I read it) in DH, that the Elder wand changes hand by murder, but Ollivander wasn't sure if the wand needed to be pass by murder, and clearly it doesn't since Harry won its alliance by unarming Draco. So it's an interesting question, I do not think it would necessary made Voldermort the master of the Elder wand. Now if Voldemort would have taken Draco's wand instead of Lucius back before he murdered Charity Burbage, then yes. Taken by force, right? But Snape, Snape knew he was going to die. Might be a defeat, but he was resigned it'd happen, maybe. Damn. ^^

Snape LIVES! ^^

[candamira.livejournal.com]

So the wand accepts the stronger OR the surviving person, right? If that theory is correct, I think the wand would think of Snape as the defeated party.

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

I interpret it as the person who defeats/overpowers another wins the wand, so that dying isn't necessary for winning the wand, and a killing doesn't necessarily mean victory. I made a longer comment to answer capitu's so I'm gonna be lazy and point to that ;)

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was the myth, but I understood it as if the death thing was a misconception created because of the kind of people who would knowingly go after the Elder Wand. They'd have no scruples in killing someone for their own gain, and that would be the obvious way to defeat. And obviously it was wrong, because Draco gained its allegiance by disarming and Harry by simply grabbing Draco's wand from his hand.

I seem to remember that Dumbledore said something like that if Draco hadn't managed to overpower Dumbledore, and Snape had done both that and kill him, the wand's power would have died with Dumbledore. Because Snape and Dumbledore had planned his death together and D wouldn't have really been defeated.

So my thoughts were that Snape's single purpose in life after Lily's death was to help Harry defeat Voldemort, and he had really done what he could. I'm guessing he didn't feel like he had much to live for, so by killing him at that stage Voldemort didn't really defeat him. But that is just wild speculations from me.

THAT IS SUCH A GOOD THOUGHT about Lucius and Draco at the Charity Burbage murder!! I never thought of that!!! :O That makes so much sense. If Voldemort hadn't been so set on revenge on Lucius he might have won after all. Wow, that's way too intriguing.

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Yes, the language part is a very good point. It would make a lot more sense to have English as a common language in an north/eastern school as well. But the accent of the students in the book doesn't support that (and seems nothing like Scandinavian accents either, for that matter). The no foreign students thing at Hogwarts (except Irish) is a bit strange also, when the other schools apparently are pretty international.

I agree that more than three schools makes the most sense, but the nationalities and placements of D and B seem so random. Like you said, it seems a bit like JKR lumps the rest of Europe together, and that's very disappointing if you ask me. It seems so unlike her, when she's put so much effort and thought into everything else, from names to spells to background stories. Very strange indeed.

Yeah, someone ought to have asked her about it. I don't know what I could google to find it, though :P

ETA: I found this: http://www.reddit.com/r/harrypotter/comments/1vgz4t/pottermore_there_are_eleven_schools_of_magic_in/

Apparently there are only 11 magic schools in the world, so that doesn't really support the theory of many other magic schools in Europe. The rest of the world is pretty big after all. The site says: "The Beauxbatons entry also added that Hogwarts is quite unique in the way it serves such a small area (The British Isles)", so that makes it even stranger that it should be bigger than Durmstrand. Stranger and stranger.

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

That is very true.

And you're sadly right. I mean, India alone would need almost twice as many schools as all of Europe. So assuming H, B and D are the only schools in Europe (which doesn't make any sense), there would have to be 5-6 schools in India and around 17 in Asia in total. So unless there are som ridiculously massive schools around the world that serves huge areas, JKR must have made a big mistake here somewhere.

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Haha, and 10 in Europe! Lol, yeah maybe we should stop.

[celestlyn.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts on the Elder Wand. I hadn't really thought about it that way. I wasn't even really thinking that killing was the only thing that meant defeat. I always figured that the moment Draco disarmed Dumbledore he became the unwitting master of the elder wand. So when Snape killed Dumbledore a few minutes later, it had already changed allegiance to Draco. Harry disarmed Draco at the Manor and was Master before Voldemort killed Snape, who was never master. Maybe I should go read on it again. Interesting to ponder.

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Oh, no you're right about all of that. It was more of a thought experiment of if Snape had been master of the Elder Wand -- whether Snape was ever truly defeated by Voldemort and what the Wand would accept as a true defeat.

[amorette.livejournal.com]

For me, I tend to think it's a combination of these two things: "it’s some sort of elite school for rich kids" and "some parents were sceptical to D’s reputation for dark magic or against the fact that Muggleborns weren’t accepted".

Eta - And by "elite" school, I mean I imagine it to be selective. As in, if Slytherin were the sole founder of Hogwarts.

:D

Thanks for starting such an awesome discussion! I love the map!!!

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that makes sense:)

It was my pleasure! It's fun to read everyone's thoughts. Glad you liked it!